Not the same Wavelength

Preliminary Clarifications 

The Athenean Stranger Says: I don’t think we are discussing on the same wavelength right now. My written skills aint the best and I may have confused you. I’ll try to get us back on track and we can discuss a little deeper.

Your statement “to my God religion doesn't matter” contradicts your new statement above when you said “we cannot comprehend him”.

No, not really, the fact that we cannot comprehend him, we cannot know what he wants. Given this, I will surrender a little and say we cannot say religion doesn’t matter ... but since we don’t know what he wants ... we can’t say it does either.. but I have more explaining below.

Having established that Transcendence does not equate to nullity, the proposition “we cannot comprehend Him (God)” is defunct.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that I was suggesting nullity? On the contrary my son, I was trying to suggest the complete opposite, transcendence to its fullest. Do not confuse acknowledgement or knowledge with comprehension. I acknowledge that god exists. I have knowledge or proof that he exists. BUT god being superior and transcendent to me, I cannot comprehend him. Try defuncting it again? (Would you try to defunct it by explaining what you comprehend of him?)

I asked for your demonstration of how being the same nullifies religion.

I am not discussing the difference between religions themselves here. I am saying all religions are the same in the sense that they all require some form of worship. That’s why they are the same. Now, refer back to my theory that god does not require worship. So now what I’m saying is that if god doesn’t require worship then there is no need for religion, any religion. This is the point. (I was NOT arguing that Catholics are the same as Muslims and have the same core beliefs and therefore that fact nullifies religion ... not at all. That doesn’t make sense.)

This in turn eliminates your premise for supporting the conclusion that such a God would not require worship. In fact I find no relation to your conclusion and premise.

Forget transcendence for a second. God is perfect and all knowing. He knows me, he knows my thoughts he knows more about me than i know of myself. Why would I need to worship him? He already knows! God needs nothing from me. As a humble being, I can respect him and acknowledge him .... without worship and without religion. How do I do this? Easy, I treat everyone’s life with respect because it was a creation of god.

If we deny God this external act (worship) we commit injustice which offends God directly on account of injustice, which he in turn cannot tolerate without restitution.

Now this is THE contradiction. Can I really do something that God is not aware of?(THIS IS GETTING GOOD!!!!) Answer the question, yes or no?

YES Option: “Yes, I can offend God WITHOUT him knowing.” This is free will. Are we free beings? Are we independent from God? Maybe god isn’t all knowing and all powerful after all? .... The concept of an “unknowing” god, MAY lead you to an even more transcendent God. Maybe one who does not require worship!

NO Option: “No, God knows everything. God created me and he knew I was going to commit such an offense”. This is destiny and a pre-determined fate. I Love this god! This god has a great sense of humour: he makes me do things he doesn’t want me to do .... hahahaha! We can discuss this more but there are problems with this path also.

this is my problem. From a philosophical point of view, both options have pros and cons with regards to the argument of who god is and what god wants. What do you do with this now? You think about it and let me know. As for me, I’ve thought about it long and hard and my conclusion is that I have to ignore because I do not know if it has any meaning at all since you can answer Yes and No.

If I am wrong in this, please define your understanding of what religion IS and what worship IS.

Simple. Worship is just the act, religion encompasses and describes that act. Again, I can respect and acknowledge him in my thoughts and in my actions, without worship. I do not need a church or a religion to do this.


The Vendéen Response: Yes we are off track on account of my misinterpretation of your positions. As I said in the beginning, it is important to “explicate the reasonings for your propositions”, and “Propositions are open to misinterpretation if not supported by supporting arguments”. I will also add that to have a more adequate dialogue and to prevent misinterpretation one must give clear definitions or explanations on particular terms (vocabulary) used. I will admit that I made a particular error in responding to your statements. The particular error in my part is an incomplete understanding and misinterpretation of what you meant by the term Comprehend. I understood and focused on a particular understanding of Comprehend as apprehension which presupposes some knowledge or perception, while in relation to your statement on the term, I thought you meant a total and absolute negation of some knowledge or perception of God. That is why my response was formed in a way that uses this understanding of comprehend as a point of departure. This is why I got the wrong idea or perception that you were suggesting nullity in the term comprehend. In any case, I apologize for the error.

Because of the setback I make the following steps below to keep us from being at different wave lengths. So before I complete my response to your recent replies so as to avoid further misinterpretations I will need to ask some preliminary questions so as to get a proper understanding of your statements. Since exactness and clarity is important for understanding so as to avoid ambiguity or misconception which leads to error, it is fitting that we understand the terms we use.

Define these terms:

1. Comprehend or comprehension.
2. Transcendence

What is your understanding of what Religion is?

What is your understanding of what Worship is?

Transcendence vs. Nothing

Transcendence equals nothing?

The Athenean Stranger says: “A true God is transcendent! do you agree?  God is all knowing, all perfect, unchanging, omnipotent and transcendent. Transcendent in the sense that we cannot know him, he is "aside" from us, we cannot comprehend him (if we could we wouldn't be talking).  This being the case, such a God would not require worship. Why? Worship would have no affect on such a God. Why? God is all knowing, Omnipotent, Transcendent etc etc. And to be clear, this does in no way mean that respect, acknowledgement, humility, kindness (all the good stuff associated with worship) are abandoned.  On the contrary, such an understanding would be good for humanity.

So from a philosophical point of view, agree with me for a second. If worship (of any kind) is not required, then, as I said before ... religion does not matter .... but Life does ... enjoy!”

The Vendéen Response: First I must point out that what you have just said does not respond directly to my reply on your last statements. You jumped to another subject. What you have said above has more fuel for argumentation which is good. But you have ignored the last points we have discussed in which I asked for your demonstration of how being the same nullifies religion, and how you know that to God Religion does not matter. Your statement “to my God religion doesn't matter” contradicts your new statement above when you said “we cannot comprehend him”. Your affirmation that to God religion does not matter presupposes that you have some knowledge of him, but yet you negate yourself by saying “we cannot comprehend him” in your new statements.

Nevertheless I will respond to your statements above, but if you can respond also to the my last reply that would be good.

You said:

“A true God is transcendent! Do you agree?”

Of course.

You mentioned:

“Transcendent in the sense that we cannot know him, he is "aside" from us, we cannot comprehend him (if we could we wouldn't be talking)”.

We cannot admit of the incomprehensibility of God in the absolute sense on account of his transcendent nature, but rather it is proper to admit that our comprehension of God is limited. If we are to admit that He cannot be comprehended (in the absolute sense) you would have to admit with the atheists and agnostics that we cannot prove God Exists, for proofs depend on certain knowledge. You need to be careful in equating transcendence to absolute nullity or negation. The term Transcendence in itself in relation to the nature of God is complex and does not exhaustively signify a negation. Infinity which subsists in the transcendent, does not equate to nothing but something. Infinity is a BEING, and BEING is understood to be anything that can be said to be or a something. Infinity excludes bounds which is itself a negation. Infinity is undefined but it does not equate to nothing. Transcendence does not exclude knowledge (comprehension) of Him but rather it presupposes some knowledge of Him (limited) since it is not a negation.

Having established that Transcendence does not equate to nullity, the proposition “we cannot comprehend Him (God)” is defunct. This in turn eliminates your premise for supporting the conclusion that such a God would not require worship. In fact I find no relation to your conclusion and premise. How does God's transcendence prove that God does not require our worship? Transcendence deals with the question of our capacity to comprehend God, our similitude and dissimilitude in relation to God, and not whether God does or does not require our worship.

You stated:

“This being the case, such a God would not require worship. Why? Worship would have no affect on such a God. Why? God is all knowing, Omnipotent, Transcendent etc etc.

On the account that “God is all knowing, all perfect, interchanging, omnipotent and transcendent” as you have said, he does not need our worship. In this I agree with you only in the sense of dependence. If God needed or depended on our worship it would make Him as a being who is lacking something. Something that lacks nothing is said to be universally perfect according to St. Thomas¹.

All created perfections are in God, and Justice which is a “habit that perfects the will and inclines it to render to each and to all what belongs to them”² exists in God in its perfect state, namely in actuality and not a habit. That being the case, God in being perfect justice requires our Worship which is due to Him alone on account of our immanence from him. We would not exist without Him. We owe our being to Him. It is within the realm of worship that acknowledgement is put into act. Since we do not worship or acknowledge God by means of thinking only privately, we also acknowledge and worship by means of external actions. Man is composed of Body and Soul, and to exclude the external part or acts denies our very being. If we deny God this external act (worship) we commit injustice which offends God directly on account of injustice, which he in turn cannot tolerate without restitution. Therefore worship is necessary not on account of God's transcendence, but rather on account of Justice which is perfect in God.

You mentioned:

So from a philosophical point of view, agree with me for a second. If worship (of any kind) is not required, then, as I said before ... religion does not matter .... but Life does ... enjoy!”

From the philosophical point of view as I have considered and demonstrated above, I cannot agree with you for a second. Your proposition “worship (of any kind) is not required...religion does not matter” has no qualification since your premise (we cannot comprehend him) for supporting the nullity of worship is defunct. I would suggest that you broaden your understanding of worship and religion, for they are used in your premises in the incomplete sense.

1St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I,4,2.

2 Slater, Thomas. "Justice." The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 8. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 15 Jan. 2010.

Religion doesnt' matter?

Religion does not matter?

The Athenean Stranger says: What do you mean, what do I mean? To my God, religion doesn’t matter. A catholic who praises Jesus is no different than a Muslim who praises Mohammed. We’re all the same, religion doesn’t matter.

The Vendéen Response: What I mean is to explicate the reasonings for your propositions. Propositions are open to misinterpretation if not supported by supporting arguments. I cannot give you an adequate response if you leave me guessing as to what your reasonings are behind your statements. Propositions that are inadequately supported, or not properly formed into argumentation, are often responded to with more questions rather than answers in an attempt to explicate more information. With your response, I am left with more questions rather than comprehending what you mean so as to give an adequate response.

You said:
"To my God, religion doesn't matter".

How do you know that to God religion doesn't matter? Has he told you this personally or is this a matter of popular and personal opinion?

You stated:
A catholic who praises Jesus is no different than a Muslim who praises Mohammed.

How is a Catholic who praises Jesus no different than a Muslim who praises Mohammed? If you are talking about no differentiation with their beliefs, you are mistaken. Some beliefs in the Catholic Faith contradict some core beliefs in the Muslim Faith. For instance Catholics affirm the Divinity of Jesus Christ whereas Muslims Negate him as a Deity by positing him to be a human only and prophet. Contradiction doesnt compute into similarity, rather it is a distinction or differentiation. But if you are talking about a Catholic, being no different than a Muslim in terms of their human nature and their dignity as a person, I am in total agreement with you.

You mentioned:
"We are all the same, religion doesn't matter".

Yes, I agree with you that we are all the same, if you mean in terms of our Human nature and dignity as a person, but there are specific differences for some individuals in terms of beliefs and ideas just to name a few. Beliefs and ideas just to name a few influence our way of acting, therefore making Religion matter since beliefs and ideas exist in it. Mother Teresa was influenced by her Faith to tend to the sick and destitute of India without regard for herself. Hitlers adaptation of Nietzsche's concept of the Super-Man influenced his ideals for raising and viewing his race (aryan) as Superhuman while excluding others as folly. What is your reasoning for positing "religion doesn't matter"? Being the same does not support the proposition "religion doesn't matter". You need to demonstrate a link between being the same and religion being insignificant.

I Believe in God the Father

Here Begins the First Dialogue

The Athenean Stranger says:  I believe in the one true God, the creator. The grand daddy of all seeders, who fathers not only Jesus Christ but all his brothers: Sidartha, Shiva, Zeus and Mohammed to name a few.


note: I use the figure of the Athenean who is referred to in Socrates' dialogues to represent the other person other than myself.


The Vendeen's Reply: Yes, I too believe in the One true God, the creator. But what do you mean when you say "who fathers not only Jesus Christ but all his brothers: Sidartha, Shiva, Zeus and Mohammed to name a few".

The Vendéen Response

I am not going to be artsy or go on the eloquent tip on my first post. My intention here is not solely to blog about myself. My Agenda here is to engage in dialogue with those who have Objections to the Catholic Church and to the erroneous. In the 9 years since my reversion to the Catholic Faith, I have seen an increase in anti-catholic ideologies and false reasoning. There are many reasons for this, but I wish to focus on a particular cause of negative sentimantility against the Church. This particular cause I am thinking about is misinformation and error in thinking. Bishop Fulton J.Sheen, a well know Bishop of the Catholic Church and preacher in American Television during the early 50's and late 60's once said: "There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing". Although this quote is whithin the context of American culture at that time, it can now be said of the whole world. There is a terrible amount of misinformation and anti-catholic propaganda  out there. Sadly this has been one of the great causes for anti-catholic ideas. 

There is much for me to write but with so little time. For now I wish only to startup a dialogue with those who have objections to the Church, with the hope of clearing up some smoke produced by those in error. 

If you are curious to know about the title of the blog, I took the name Vendéen Response to symbolise a person or member of a Royalists Army who fought and responded against the French Revolution in Vendée, France. The Vendéens fought the anti-catholic/anti-monarchial Revolution and took the heart and cross symbol as their insignia. Below their insignia were the words "Dieu Le Roi", which means GOD THE KING. I find this signification fitting because of the present anti-catholic atmosphere that seem to re-echo the sentiments of the Anti-Catholic French Revolution. In the  Spirit of the Vendéens, I wish to engage the threat of anti-catholicism which has latched on to  so many uninformed individuals.

It is my hope with the Help of Jesus Christ who is forever King and ruler,  that I might be able to bring others to acknowledge Him as King and Lord. With the help of His Holy Mother, who is the Mediatrix of all graces, and through dialogue in this blog, I hope that others may believe that Jesus Christ is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE. I recall here the words of Jesus Christ: "No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him" (John 6:44).